Question about flow with relay and capacitor (Make Electronics-Charles Platt, Exp. 8)

capacitorledrelay

I'm a newbie working my way through Charles Platt's Make: Electronics (2nd Ed). I'm on Experiment 8 and I'm confused about something. The circuit looks like this:
circuit schematic

What is supposed to happen is that when the button is pushed the capacitor charges before the power is cut to the button, it keeps the relay switched until the capacitor discharges. So the right-hand LED stays on for a few seconds before the relay switched back and the left-hand LED comes back on.
Platt notes that if the right-hand LED is removed, when holding down the button the left-hand LED will fade out over about a second before popping back on and cycling again, since some of the power from the capacitor flows through it.
What I don't understand is why the same thing doesn't happen when the right-hand LED is present. In other words, in the original circuit why does the left-hand LED wink out immediately instead of fading when the push button is held down.
As an experiment, I modified the circuit so that each LED had its own 470-ohm resistor. Once I did this, the left-hand LED would indeed fade instead of winking out. Can anyone explain this behavior to me? Thanks!

If it helps, here's the modified circuit on my breadboard, sorry for the crummy image quality:
modified circuit

Best Answer

schematic

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Circuit 1. Full circuit.

  • Initially D1 is on. V1 = 9V.
  • Press SW1 the capacitor charges and the relay turns on, disconnecting the supply. V2 = 9 V. V1 = capacitor voltage which is falling. D1 turns off - probably by the time V1 reaches 8.5 V because it's anode is held at about 7 V by the current flowing through D2 and R1.
  • The capacitor holds the relay on for a few seconds and the relay drops out.
  • If SW1 is still pressed the cycle repeats.

Clarification: For current to flow in D1 the anode (top) will need to be about 1.5 - 2.0 V higher than the cathode (bottom). When the relay initially picks up V1 = V2 = 9 V so both LEDs light. Then C1 starts to discharge and V1 falls to 8.9, 8.8, 8.7 V. Meanwhile D2 is being powered directly from the 9 V battery. If, say, 15 mA flows through D2 and R1 the voltage at the top of R1 will be \$I \cdot R = 0.015 \cdot 470 = 7 V\$. But V1 is falling and at 8.5 V there will be (8.5 - 7) = 1.5 V across D1 and it will be very dim and shortly after go out completely.

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Circuit 2. Left LED only.

  • Initially D1 is on.
  • Press SW1 the capacitor charges and the relay turns on, disconnecting the supply.
  • If SW1 is held the V1 = capacitor voltage. D1 gradually decays with C1 voltage until the relay drops out.
  • If SW1 is still pressed the cycle repeats.

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Circuit 3. Right LED only.

  • This time D2 turns on and gets full 9V.
  • Relay hold-up lasts longer because C1 is only discharging through the relay coil. (D1 is missing.)

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Circuit 4. Independent LED resistors.

  • This time V2 goes to 9 V as before and lights fully.
  • V1 starts at 9 V and follows C1's voltage. In Circuit 1 D1 turned off quickly because it's anode was held at about 7 V by D2. This time it isn't so it remains forward biased with current flowing and light emitting!

Good first question. Some tips for future: There's a schematic button on the editor toolbar. It's quite easy to use. Draw your circuits with + at the top and - at the bottom. It's easier to see what's happening then.